HANNAH BATES: Welcome to HBR on Leadership, case studies and conversations with the world’s top business and management experts, hand-selected to help you unlock the best in those around you.
Do you have what it takes to be a manager?
Ellen Van Oosten says good managers aren’t born. Van Oosten is a professor at the Weatherhead School of Management at Case Western Reserve, and co-author of the book, Helping People Change.
In this episode, she takes questions from listeners who are struggling to move into management. She offers advice for what to do when you’ve been tapped for a managerial role but you don’t want it OR if your supervisor is blocking you from earning the title of manager. She also has suggestions for how to make the move to manager even if you only have informal management experience on your CV.
This episode originally aired on Dear HBR: in August 2020. Here it is.
DAN MCGINN: Welcome to Dear HBR: from Harvard Business Review. I’m Dan McGinn.
ALISON BEARD: And I’m Alison Beard. Work can be frustrating. But it doesn’t have to be. We don’t need to let the conflicts get us down.
DAN MCGINN: That’s where Dear HBR: comes in. We take your questions, look at the research, talk to the experts, and help you move forward.
ALISON BEARD: Today we’re talking about managers in the making with Ellen Van Oosten. She’s a professor at the Weatherhead School of Management at Case Western Reserve University, and she’s a coauthor of the book Helping People Change: Coaching with Compassion for Lifelong Learning and Growth. Ellen, thanks so much for being on the show.
ELLEN VAN OOSTEN: Oh, thanks, Alison. It’s really a joy to be with you and Dan today.
ALISON BEARD: So, what does management material mean to you?
ELLEN VAN OOSTEN: Management material to me is really about having what it takes to be effective and successful in working with others. The manager’s role, fundamentally, is about being able to connect with people, and lead them to accomplish something.
DAN MCGINN: Is that phrase, management material, kind of a loaded phrase? It suggests almost a binary construction where either you are management material or you aren’t management material.
ELLEN VAN OOSTEN: It can be perceived that way, Dan. And I think in some cases, people like to think of it as a born manager. All the research is that management material is the kind of thing that one can develop, which is encouraging. It gives us all hope. And so, knowing if you’ve got what it takes and knowing how to be more effective is something that requires ongoing intention, usually, and effort.
DAN MCGINN: Dear HBR: I’m a professor at a small university. I love my job, and by all relevant metrics, my career is thriving. I’m well-liked by colleagues, and I’m popular with students. I see myself as a very productive member of the faculty, and I believe others see me this way, too. Here’s the issue. I’m being pushed to become the chair of my department. At my school, this is a middle management position. It involves bridging the gap between faculty members and university administrators. Accepting this position would decrease the aspects of the job that I love, teaching, and research, while increasing aspects of the job that I detest, meetings, and bureaucracy. This is a voluntary position. I’ve told everyone who would listen that it’s not the job for me. However, I’m the only qualified faculty member in my department who hasn’t already served as the chair. My colleagues are suggesting that I really ought to take a turn. The last two chairs have quit after one year. The seemed really unhappy in the job. I can’t help but feel I’d suffer the same fate. Should I just suck it up and take one for the team? Or should I stick to my guns and refuse this voluntary post?
ELLEN VAN OOSTEN: This is a great question, Dan, and it’s a great question because I think so many people can relate to being in this position. I’ve worked with others who are in sales positions and being asked to be the sales manager, or engineers who are being kind of pushed to take on the role of manager of the engineering department. So very similar, even though the specifics are different. And this person is asking, should I just suck it up and take one for the team? Or stick to my guns and refuse this voluntary post. So, it sets up this, you know, A/B, yes/no, notion. So that would be my first thought is to, you know, open the possibilities up, so that there are more than just one or two ways to move forward.
ALISON BEARD: Yeah, I completely agree. So, I empathize with the letter writer, that if you really enjoy aspects of your job that are hands-on and individual work, being asked to become a bureaucrat is not a great position to be in. But at the same time, it does seem as if there is something of a rotation going on in his department. And so maybe one of the compromise areas is a limited tenure? Could he be willing to serve for a year? Or does he feel like that’s too much, even?
DAN MCGINN: Ellen, you know, it sounds like you’re suggesting, don’t approach this so much as a decision, but as a negotiation where you kind of come up with alternatives. What other options, besides time limiting or saying yes or no would you come up with, or what do you suggest?
ELLEN VAN OOSTEN: Well, one of the things I would encourage the professor to do is, have some conversations one on one with his peers, where he could talk about the overall goals of the department or the work of the department, and how the role of the chair supports that. But also gives him a chance in those conversations to be transparent and talk about the ways that he already contributes to the broader shared purpose of their work. And one option, in addition to, Alison, what you mentioned, could be maybe splitting up aspects of the chair’s responsibility. So, maybe there’s certain committees that the chair needs to serve on. There might be others in the department who could serve on those committees on behalf of the chair. But I think in dialog, one on one, with individuals, that would create some important connection around their kind of shared work and also engage people together in thinking about what’s possible.
ALISON BEARD: I love the idea of trying to redesign the role because it seems like he’s not the only person who doesn’t want this job. So, talking with administrators, talking with the rest of the faculty, brainstorming ways in which this job can be made a better one for everyone. I like the idea of starting that conversation about how to make the job one that people will want to do or at least not hate doing.
ELLEN VAN OOSTEN: So, Alison, what really that brings up for me is like, could he endure it? Like, I loved the phrase, like at least not hate the role. And that’s also, I think, a possibility here is that if you could redesign it, so it’s tolerable, for a short period of time, we can do a lot of things for 12 months, 18 months, 24 months.
DAN MCGINN: Alison, I think you’re editing an article right now on the art of saying no. Is there anything you’ve learned from that that would apply to this situation?
ALISON BEARD: Well, I think that Bruce Tulgan, who is the author of that piece, would say, every request that comes to you deserves consideration. So it should never be an immediate yes, and it should never be an immediate know. And then he would say, you need to do your due diligence on exactly what’s required.
You know, our letter writer assumes that there will be a lot of meetings and bureaucracy. How true is that? How many meetings is it a year? Is there any flexibility around that? And then, if you decide that ultimately you want to say no, you need to give a well-reasoned argument. So you need to say, I am respectfully turning down this opportunity, because I have X, Y, Z research projects that are going to be so critical to the university’s standing in our field, it’s really important that I devote all my time to that, something to explain why he’s making the decision that will probably be quite unpopular.
DAN MCGINN: Ellen, universities are unusual places in that professors often get tenure and have a lot more power to say no to things like this request. Even though our listener seems to have the ability to say no, what would you advise them in terms of the fallout from doing that, and just because you have the power to do something, to avoid something like this, does that mean it’s a good idea to do it?
ELLEN VAN OOSTEN: You know, that is a great question, Dan. You are so on target, that universities are kind of unique places. Right? They’re unique systems. I think the implications of that, that I would suggest he wants to think through, would be the relationships he has with the peers, with his peers and his own department, and the implication for the department, because what happens is if a department is left kind of without a leader, is that the voice of the department becomes marginalized in the school, or in the system that they’re in. So those chairs meet with other chairs. The chairs often sit on appointments committees. And so, there is a potential missed opportunity for the department, and by extension, his peers and maybe even himself.
DAN MCGINN: At a previous job a bunch of years ago, I worked in a department that was a little bit like this one. We definitely were not tenured, but somebody needed to raise their hand to become the editor of the section. And there were a lot of downsides to the job, and nobody was really enthusiastic about doing it. But eventually, one of my friends reasoned that, hey, if one of us doesn’t do it, they may hire somebody who’s really bad, and that will be painful and costly for all of us. So a little bit reluctantly, he raised his hand, got the job, and he ended up being surprised and loving it and doing really well at it, and he went from a writing career into a very successful editing career because he took the job to avoid some other bozo getting it. So I think you do need to think a little bit about the downside of a really bad person getting this post, and the potential upside that you may surprise yourself and like it more than you think you would.
ELLEN VAN OOSTEN: I have a similar story, too. So there are often many benefits that are hard to see when you initially can’t see a lot of the good things. But if we could think more openly and more in a balanced way about what the possibilities are, then we might be surprised.
ALISON BEARD: So Dan, what are we telling him?
DAN MCGINN: First, we think he needs to reframe the question he’s asking. He’s very focused on this as a yes or no, take one for the team, or just stick to my guns and decline the position. We think there are a range of options in between. He might try to time limit the position. We think there might be an opportunity to job craft here, to redesign the position, handing off the parts of it that he finds less attractive or more onerous to other colleagues. We think he needs to be aware that even if he does have tenure and has the right and the power to say no, that there could be costs to saying no. The department’s standing could go down. If he does decide to say no, we think that taking advice from Bruce Tulgan would make a lot of sense. Deliberate over it, do your due diligence, and then make a well-reasoned, well-crafted argument that explains exactly why you’re declining. And finally, if he does decide to go into this, be aware that he may surprise himself, and there may be unexpected upsides. There are certainly lots of people who take battlefield promotions or become a manger somewhat reluctantly, who end up thriving and end up enjoying parts of the job. So don’t count that out as a possibility.
ALISON BEARD: Dear HBR: I’ve worked in local government in Australia for 13 years. I took a major turn when I moved out of a 20-year marketing and communications career into policy development and governance. I’m a natural at it and have transformed our department and the organization’s approach. I get lots of great feedback from my boss and my peers. After two years, I’ve demonstrable runs on the board, and I do a lot of informal management whenever I get the opportunity. Here’s the problem. I’m 50 years old and have made lots of sideways moves, often because I’ve had to follow my spouse around. The last time I managed a team was quite some time ago. But I really want to take a step up to a more senior position. Unfortunately, opportunities in my organization are limited. Many bosses are rested on until they retire. I told my employer about my ambitions and was encouraged to apply for roles that come up. But they are few and far between, especially during the pandemic. And I’m feeling my age and the competition of younger candidates with more recent and more formal manager experience on their resumes. Did I wait to wait too long to make a run at this? Was my mid-career switch a mistake? What can I do?
ELLEN VAN OOSTEN: This one really hits home, Alison, because I do a lot of work with women and helping them to develop their leadership capability. This letter writer really is a great example of something that all of us can suffer from at different times. And that is to think that it’s too late, to think that something, some opportunity has passed us by. It’s never too late to reach for your dreams. She used that word, dream, and that, for me, is when I’d go back and underline. However, it does mean, given the context and the situation, that it’s likely to require some additional thinking and effort, maybe some steps on her part, to be able to reach those dreams. But right out of the gate, I would focus on what it is that you really would love to do.
ALISON BEARD: Yeah, Ellen, that was my immediate instinct, too. She seems to be really thriving in this new organization and role, and it’s exciting that she wants to move up and take on more responsibility. The question is, with limited opportunities, how does she do it? So what are some of those steps that you think she should take?
ELLEN VAN OOSTEN: You know, I think, Alison, it always starts off with mindset. So, she’s very aware of her age. And age is kind of where we are. We can’t really change it. So, I would ask the question, how can you turn that into a strength? She has the maturity that younger professionals don’t from her experience. She’s also demonstrated her commitment and enthusiasm, which employers, you know, die for. So instead of focusing on the past, and what she wasn’t able to do for whatever reason, focus on the future and what she really hopes and aspired to accomplish, however winding the path has been.
DAN MCGINN: I wonder if it’s important that she’s working in government. You know, we think of the tech industry as a place that is a little bit notorious for age discrimination and for thinking that young workers are better workers. So I wonder if her views about her age should be tempered a little bit because she’s in an industry that historically has been pretty favorable for older people.
ALISON BEARD: You’re both making excellent points on the age issue. Fifty is not ancient. It’s not close to retirement if you plan to work into your 70s. And she does have a lot of experience in marketing and communications and collaborating with people and leading informally. The other thing is, we are in this world where everyone acknowledges skills are transferable from one industry to another. Claudio Fernández-Aráoz, one of our frequent contributors, wrote a post about why he likes unconventional resumes. Sometimes when you’ve done things outside of the industry or even the function that everyone else has been in, it allows you to sort of bring a more innovative mindset and more energy to the job. So I think that if she recognized all those things, and approaches this move, you know, her candidacy with more confidence, it could help. No one’s told her that she’s out of the running. In fact, her boss told her to apply. The problem is that there aren’t many roles, but the roles are coming. And she should go for them and not be afraid of all these younger candidates who might outshine her because they tick the boxes. She can go in and prove that she has something different and better to offer.
ELLEN VAN OOSTEN: I think you’re so right on target, Alison, which brings me to another thing that I think she would need to like natural do next, to network. And she’s obviously talked to her manager already and has gotten some positive feedback, as you mentioned, Alison. I would encourage her now to open that up and be intentional about identifying others who are in roles that are exciting for her, that she could see herself aspiring to do or to be in, and to seek them out and schedule meetings with them. And the meetings, I would encourage she approaches those as informational interviews. Connecting with people and having conversations on an ongoing basis may surprise her in terms of, you know, what kind of opportunities could emerge.
DAN MCGINN: Ellen, should she be spending more time looking outside of her own organization to try and find opportunities?
ELLEN VAN OOSTEN: You know, I don’t think more time would be the key, Dan, but I do think some time, for sure. Because you know, there’s natural constraints, because it sounds like there is not a lot of open opportunities currently, and might not be in the near future, she owes it to herself to at least kind of cast a wider net and explore possibilities outside of the organization. That might also help build her confidence, too, and it might help her see how her kind of unique background, maybe unconventional background, sets herself up well to be successful in a different organization or in a different context. So I think that’s a really good point, and definitely something for her to consider.
ALISON BEARD: I think her hesitation is that these people who she works with now know her and know her strengths and her skills and probably know that she could be a manager and is ready to do so when the right opportunity comes up. Whereas outside, people only really look at a resume. She might not even get through the door because she doesn’t have that team leader experience. If she starts going for these external opportunities, and someone says, wait, but you don’t have management experience, what should she say?
ELLEN VAN OOSTEN: That’s always a tricky and sometimes uncomfortable spot to be in. I can empathize with her for sure. But I think she does have the experience. She has a story to tell that’s a great story. And part of her preparation for those conversations would need to be to clarify, you know, the work, that she has done, maybe prove it to herself, actually, so that she can articulate it clearly, three or four particular things she’s done and the impact that they’ve had. Another would be to get referrals, folks who would speak on her behalf, which is pretty common. Right? If she could not only have references ready but have references that might either write a letter, that she could submit with her resume or application materials, that might help get her past kind of an initial screen, where somebody might look at a resume and not see an actual title of manager and be kind of quick to set it aside as a result. So a couple of things to consider that might help her with that particular situation.
DAN MCGINN: Is there anything else she can do to bolster her resume for this bid, whether it’s internal or external?
ELLEN VAN OOSTEN: I think there’s one other big area that she benefits from focusing on, Dan, and it’s to take an honest look at herself, kind of hold a mirror up, so to speak, and assess her capabilities. Does she have the knowledge and the skills to be able to be viewed as having the management material to be successful? It’s possible, and probably likely, that there’s some knowledge areas that she might need to shore up on, or skills that need to be further developed. And the good thing about kind of the pandemic is that there’s a lot of opportunities to learn online. So we have access, actually, to a lot of great courses and workshops and podcasts like this, and other resources that can help her. And that’s the kind of thing that if she could invest in that for herself, but also then be able to communicate and convey that to hiring managers, it shows that she is a lifelong learner and willing to continue to develop and grow. And it’s hard to be able to teach that. So that kind of speaks for itself as a quality that managers need to possess to be successful going forward.
DAN MCGINN: Great. Alison, what’s our summary?
ALISON BEARD: First we want to assure her that it’s not too late. She is happy and thriving and wants to move up, and we think that she should continue to follow that dream. We’d encourage her to change her mindset about age. You know, she does have experience and maturity that younger colleagues don’t have, and about her industry switch, because her skills are transferrable. We want to see her adopt a growth mindset and to move in the right direction, we suggest networking, being intentional about connecting with others in roles that she would like to have, and figuring out what management looks like in this organization. Then build the knowledge and skills that she needs to be seen as successful if she doesn’t have them already. She could also look outside her agency. But if she does, she just needs to be ready to tell her story and line up references that explain why her past and informal management experience is relevant to the job she wants.
DAN MCGINN: Dear HBR: For the past two years, I’ve been what some people call a “stupivisor.” I’ve been managing a team without the title or authority. I work at a mortgage company where a relative is my branch manager. He recruited me away from a startup, and I came in as a sales assistant five years ago. My official title is still assistant, even though I mentor, train, and hold my sales agents accountable. My pay structure is similar to managers in other industries, where I receive overrides on everything my sales team does. My relative has told me multiple times that I’m not ready for a management role, although when I ask what skills I’m lacking, he’s never specific in his answer. I don’t know why I’m being snubbed. Maybe it’s greed. Managers aren’t paid on a flat commission base. Instead, they get to keep whatever profits are leftover in the branch accounts after expenses are paid. They control the P&Ls, and they’re kept secret from everyone. They could be making anything from zero to $100,000 per month. If I were officially the manager of my team, my relative would earn less. There’s no incentive for him to promote me. But maybe it’s another issue. I worry that he’s having a tough time envisioning me as a manager because he knew me as a child before I was well educated and professional. It feels as though no matter how much I accomplish, I will still be his younger relative. Is there a way to overcome this? Should I get an MBA to prove without a shadow of a doubt that I have management capabilities? Or should I make a lateral move to a new company where there are more promising opportunities for advancement?
ELLEN VAN OOSTEN: Well, right out of the gate, Dan, I think family businesses, oh, they are loaded with lots of complexities. So this letter writer is dealing with a couple of challenges. Right? He’s got potentially the financial incentive system is stacked against him. At least that’s what he’s wondering. And seems pretty plausible, you know, it could be happening. But then also there’s this dynamic where his relative is the branch manager. I would encourage that he sets out to have some conversation over a period of time, not just one, but a couple. And the conversation would focus on, initially, the business, finding out from the branch manager where he sees the business going. So engaging in a different kind of conversation with this relative. In another conversation, he could then bring back some ideas. And then lastly, where those conversations ideally could move him to is to be able to open up a discussion where he says, hey, I’d really, I’m excited about where the organization’s going, and I really want to contribute. Here’s what I think I do well, and here are the ways I can contribute now. And also, here are the ways that I would envision being able to contribute in the future. Do you see a role for me? So it’s not avoiding kind of the hard questions, but it sounds like he has to first establish a different kind of relationship, so the branch manager sees him as a businessperson, not just kind of the child that he was at the family picnic. What do you guys think about as a starting point?
ALISON BEARD: Yeah, so it’s interesting that you’re suggesting that, Ellen, because from my perspective, our letter writer is saying, look, I’ve already proven myself. I mentor, train, manage all these sales agents. I am a manager. And I want to be recognized for that work I’m already doing. So I get your point that he can’t just come in and say, I deserve a promotion, give me a promotion. It has to be a more collaborative conversation than that. But at the same time, I feel like he has proven himself to some degree, and is still stymied. So how do you recommend he overcome that? You know, he suggests getting an MBA, making a lateral move. Are there any other options that you see for him?
ELLEN VAN OOSTEN: Well, continuing his education, getting an MBA or pursuing some additional certifications, all of that is important to do regardless. I think an interesting point about this that he makes that caught my attention is that, should he do this to prove it to his relative, the branch manager, and my response to that is, he should do that, seeking additional education and furthering his own development, to prove it to himself. While I agree with you, Alison, from what we know, he certainly is on a great trek, and having some good impact and doing some great things. He might be suffering from a confidence issue, which would be understandable because the branch manager is not giving him any sort of recognition. Right? So that’s one. But I think the elephant in the room, which you’re addressing, is that he has been doing good work, and he is not getting recognition, but actually is not even getting headway with this relative, the branch manager. So another option would be to address that a little more directly. Right? And if there’s one question, I often call it like the million-dollar question, that our letter writer could ask. It would be, what’s one thing I need to do more of or do differently to be successful? And once I demonstrate that, what doors open for me here? So, it tends to be generative. You know, it opens up the discussion as opposed to kind of closing the door, like this is what I’m doing, and I deserve this, and if you don’t give it to me, I’m leaving, kind of thing, which is what I would not recommend in this situation.
DAN MCGINN: As I listen, Ellen and Alison, as I listen to the two of you, it seems like there’s sort of a different orientation in the sense of: should we look backward at what the person has done, and why that existing track record should be sufficient to get the listener the promotion now? Or should we look forward towards the future?
ALISON BEARD: Honestly, I think he should just get out of this organization. I think the incentive structure is super weird. I think that the relationship with his relative is always going to be an issue. And he’s gotten some great experience, even though he hasn’t gotten the title, and just like we told our last letter writer, he can apply for the kind of jobs he wants at other organizations, and talk about all the experience that he’s gotten at this mortgage company.
ELLEN VAN OOSTEN: So that really, working with family is inherently difficult. And so, on one hand, will this ever change? Who knows. It’s very likely that it may not because you’ve got, you know, personal dynamics of family dynamics beyond kind of just what we all deal with in our businesses and in organizational life. So if some of those insurmountable, which sounds like it might be, then I can’t say I disagree. However, I am a bit of an optimist, or at least I think he owes it to himself to open up a dialog with this person. If nothing else to get some practice being able to reflect and articulate the kinds of things that he is doing and has been doing in the ways that they are contributing, and to see if the branch manager will at least respond to him and give him some more concrete feedback. And if nothing else, I think he does also owe it to himself to explore opportunities outside of the organization. But to be upfront about that in the conversation, and you know, if there’s nothing there for him in the next 12 to 18 months or 24 months, then I think the writing is for sure on the wall, but then everybody kind of agrees to that, and it might be just time to kind of move on.
ALISON BEARD: Dan, what’s our summary?
DAN MCGINN: So we think this is a complicated situation which is not unusual with family businesses. You’ve got relationships that go back many years, even into childhood. You’ve got a weird financial structure. We think that this listener needs to have a couple of conversations with the branch manager. First, talk about the future of the business broadly. Don’t focus just on his own situation, but more, is the business going to grow? How is it changed? What capabilities might it need in the future? Then maybe in a subsequent conversation, talk about the individual possibilities for the listener directly. Might there be a role for him down the line that’s bigger than the one now? Ask that question, what can I do more of or do differently to try to be more successful here? And listen very carefully to the answer. If there is no answer, which is basically how the branch manager has responded to this in the past, that may be a strong sign that it’s time to explore other opportunities. This listener should be confident. He’s developed some great skills. He has some great experience. And he’ll have a good story to tell to a future employer.
ALISON BEARD: Ellen, thanks so much for coming on the show.
ELLEN VAN OOSTEN: Thanks, Alison. This has really been a lot of fun.
HANNAH BATES: That was Ellen Van Oosten in conversation with Alison Beard and Dan McGinn on Dear HBR:. She’s a professor at the Weatherhead School of Management at Case Western Reserve, and co-author of the book, Helping People Change.
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This episode was produced by Curt Nickisch, Anne Saini, and me, Hannah Bates. Ian Fox is our editor. Music by Coma Media. Special thanks to Maureen Hoch, Erica Truxler, Ramsey Khabbaz, Nicole Smith, Anne Bartholomew, and you – our listener. See you next week.
