On this “Face the Nation” broadcast, moderated by Margaret Brennan:
- Rep. Mike Turner, Republican of Ohio
- Business executive Frank McCourt
- Mouaz Moustafa, executive director for the Syrian Emergency Task Force, and Andrew Boyd, former director of the CIA’s Center for Cyber Intelligence
- Reps. Mike Kelly, Republican of Pennsylvania, and Jason Crow, Democrat of Colorado
Click here to browse full transcripts of “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan.”
MARGARET BRENNAN: I’m Margaret Brennan in Washington.
And this week on Face the Nation: There is breaking news overnight, as Syrian rebels overthrow dictator Bashar al-Assad’s regime. What are the implications for the Middle East and American security?
Syrian rebels swept into the capital city of Damascus today with breakneck speed, finally toppling the brutal al-Assad regime after 13 years of civil war. It’s a conflict that former and soon-to-be-President again Donald Trump is familiar with. He wants bomb Assad’s military to punish him for using chemical weapons and then ordered U.S. troops out of Syria six years ago.
Trump spent Saturday reconnecting with U.S. allies in Paris.
(Begin VT)
DONALD TRUMP (Former President of the United States (R) and Current U.S. President-Elect): It certainly seems like the world is going a little crazy right now.
(End VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: We will have the latest from the region and we will talk to the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, Ohio Republican Mike Turner.
Then: Following the congressional task force investigation into security failures leading to the assassination attempts of Donald Trump earlier this year…
(Begin VT)
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE KELLY (R-Pennsylvania): At every step of the way, they failed.
(End VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: … top investigators Pennsylvania Republican Mike Kelly and Colorado Democrat Jason Crow will give us their findings on how to fix the Secret Service.
Finally: With the future of controversial social media giant TikTok in doubt, we will hear from a potential buyer.
It’s all just ahead on Face the Nation.
Good morning, and welcome to Face the Nation.
For the first time in 54 years, the al-Assad family is no longer ruling Syria.
(Begin VT)
(SHOUTING)
(End VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Rebels who’d been fighting government forces for 13 years swept through Syria in two weeks, capturing Damascus, taking the Syrian people and the world by surprise.
Dictator Bashar al-Assad appears to have fled the country. And we are reminded this morning of the horrors from his reign of terror. His brutal suppression of anti-regime protests in 2011 sparked the world’s largest refugee crisis. Since then, the mass atrocities became too numerous to detail, the death toll impossible to tally, including due to the regime’s use of chemical weapons against civilians.
Assad dared to test whether America and the world would stop him, something then-President Obama chose not to do militarily, even after he crossed that so-called red line.
Here’s our Bob Schieffer’s report on Assad’s chemical weapon attack from 2013.
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BOB SCHIEFFER: The death toll in what appears to be a poison gas attack in the Syrian civil war continues to rise. By some estimates, as many as 1,800 people may have been killed. Rebels blame the Syrian government, which continues to deny any responsibility.
Whoever is responsible, perhaps nothing can better help us understand the horror of Syria than this video of a mother telling her small child goodbye, almost as if she is hugging her good night and tucking her into bed.
(End VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: President-elect Donald Trump met Saturday with French President Emmanuel Macron, as well as Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, who is lobbying for more aid from the U.S. and NATO allies in his country’s war with Russia.
In a post on his TRUTH Social Web site early this morning, Mr. Trump blamed Assad’s defeat on the entanglements of his allies, saying Russia lost all interest in Syria because of Ukraine, and, along with Iran, Russia is in a – quote – “weakened state” right now.
Trump called for an immediate cease-fire in Ukraine, saying that Zelenskyy and Ukraine wanted to make a deal to stop the madness.
We begin our coverage today with our Imtiaz Tyab reporting from the Turkish-Syrian border.
(Begin VT)
(SHOUTING)
IMTIAZ TYAB (voice-over): Scenes like this would have been unthinkable just one week ago, Syrian rebels in the heart of Damascus celebrating the fall of the regime, with the whereabouts of President Bashar al-Assad unknown, as people wept for joy in the streets…
(MAN SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE)
IMTIAZ TYAB: … shouting “Freedom.”
(MAN SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE)
IMTIAZ TYAB: Some rebels appeared on state TV to announce Assad’s removal. His stunning defeat was at the hands of an alliance of armed groups who launched a lightning-fast offensive seemingly out of nowhere, and who faced little resistance from the Syrian army.
The rebel forces say they have now – quote – “fully liberated” a number of major cities. And they have also emptied prisons filled with those who dared to stand up against Assad’s rule during the country’s nearly-14-year civil war, a war that, up until now, had seemed frozen, even forgotten.
But as the statues and monuments to the Assad dynasty continue to be pulled to the ground, the family’s blood-soaked half-century of authoritarian rule passed from father to son is now over. Ten years ago, at the height of the civil war, which was born out of the Arab Spring uprisings…
(MAN SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE)
IMTIAZ TYAB: … Assad was then just barely clinging to power. But Russia and Iran, along with Lebanon’s powerful Iranian-backed Hezbollah militia, came to his rescue and tipped the war firmly in his favor through a punishing campaign of well-documented war crimes, including indiscriminate airstrikes and chemical weapons attacks, a brutality against his own people that’s hard to fathom.
But Russia is now preoccupied with its war in Ukraine. Hezbollah’s leadership has been decapitated after a year of bitter fighting with Israel. And Iran along with its other proxies have also been degraded by Israeli strikes.
Assad’s 24-year rule looks unlikely to be rescued or resurrected, ushering a new, but deeply uncertain era for Syria.
(End VT)
IMTIAZ TYAB: And a key leader of Syria’s armed opposition, Abu Mohammad al-Golani, who belongs to a group known as Hay’at Tahrir al-Sham, which used to be aligned with al Qaeda, has forbid anyone to go near the buildings housing Syria’s state institutions, signaling the rebels want to support a peaceful transition of power.
But the power vacuum left by Bashar al-Assad is enormous, Margaret. And the fear is, these groups could soon turn on each other and begin a new, perhaps even darker chapter in this already ugly civil war.
MARGARET BRENNAN: That’s Imtiaz Tyab reporting from the Turkish-Syrian border.
And we’re joined now by the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, Ohio Congressman Mike Turner.
Just a stunning turn of events within such a short period of time. The U.S. doesn’t have a diplomatic presence inside of Syria. Our visibility is a little limited here. What is it that you think Americans need to know about this turn of events?
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER (R-Ohio): Well, Margaret, that was an excellent report, because you certainly laid the groundwork of this has been an incredibly brutal civil war with hundreds of thousands of people dying, including the use of chemical weapons, and, of course, reminding people that the Obama administration had said this would be a red line, that we would use military force to stop the use of chemical weapons, then failing to do so.
This is a – an Islamic militia that has risen up and has continued and now is successfully toppling the Assad regime. As your report indicated, it’s al Qaeda in its origins, but it opposes ISIS. It is Turkish-backed.
This is a blow to Iran, a blow to Russia. We’re seeing what is likely a disintegration in – in Syria. The big questions will be, what does this mean for the U.S.? What does it mean for Iran, Russia, the neighbors of Israel and Jordan, which are strong allies of the United States?
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, you mentioned there and we showed the picture of Abu Mohammad al-Golani. He is the leader of Hay’at Tahrir al-Sham, people call HTS. You’re going to hear a lot about that in the coming days and weeks, the rebel group that appears to be taking control.
But they are working also with the prime minister. The United States government has a ten million bounty on the head of Jolani. Do you think the United States still should keep that? Should Americans be concerned that this will mean something in terms of impact for terror threats to the United States?
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: Well, this is a terrorist organization and group, but this is not going to be just a passing of power and authority. It could be. We’ll have to, obviously, watch that.
You know, one of the things that we do see here, though, is, this is a diplomatic failure with respect to the United States and Turkey. You know, the U.S. has troops in Syria. This is on the border of Turkey. Turkey is a NATO ally. The United States is working with the Kurds. This really could have been an opportunity for the United States to work to try to resolve the issue between the Kurds, Turkey and the United States and working with Turkish interests in Syria.
Hopefully, this could be an opportunity where there could be a diplomatic support there that hopefully could have – you know, help in this transition in Syria.
MARGARET BRENNAN: There are 900 U.S. troops in Syria in the South.
Donald Trump in 2019 pulled U.S. troops out of Northern Syria, abandoning our allies there. Do you believe he will stand by the 900 U.S. troops that remain there, or should he consider pulling them out when he takes office?
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: Well, I think, you know, one of the things that Donald Trump will make clear is, is that any threat to U.S. troops will be unbelievably responded to.
So, everyone should understand, absolutely, that the United States troops are to be secure. The second thing is, is, he does absolutely support the Kurds and that he’s going to look for a diplomatic solution. I think there will be an assessment as to whether or not those troops should remain.
But it’s – you know, I think, here, there is an opportunity for the parties, especially now that Iran and Russia’s roles are going to be diminished – diminished. They have been brutal in their support with Assad, the hundreds of thousands of people, including use of chemical weapons, that have been killed have been under the Russian influence there.
Russia still has two bases, a naval and air force base there, that are going to be, you know, both at risk for Russia, but also a risk to the population of Syria, because they could – they have been used before to attack the Syrian population.
We’ll have to see what Russia does there. But this is going to be an area that’s going to be highly volatile and in transition.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And no idea where Bashar al-Assad might have fled to?
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: No, not at this time.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I want to ask you, since we’re talking about the incoming administration.
Donald Trump has chosen Tulsi Gabbard, the former congresswoman, a former Democrat, now Republican, to be the director of national intelligence, overseeing 18 intelligence agencies.
She not only went and met with Assad. She publicly doubted high-confidence assessments by U.S. intelligence that he did what we showed you pictures of him doing, using chemical weapons there.
Do you trust that she could actually represent the intelligence community, lead it and be trusted to brief the commander in chief?
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: Well, I obviously differ in a great deal in a number of areas with both her judgment and – and her background and experience.
But what I do trust is the…
MARGARET BRENNAN: You’re smiling when you’re saying this.
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: … is the Senate – is the Senate’s process.
And I think the – the senators are going to put her through a process. She has been nominated. She will go through the process, and I think there will be significant debate and evaluation. I think…
MARGARET BRENNAN: You don’t think she’ll be confirmed?
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: … that Donald Trump has put together in his last term, and I think he will in this term, a great national security team.
I think CIA Director Ratcliffe, I think Mike Waltz as national security director…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Mm-hmm.
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: … are both great examples of people who are going to be foundational.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: And I think you’re going to see a great national security team.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, this is a community that you also have oversight of. So you may not vote in the Senate, but it sounds like she doesn’t have your confidence.
What about Pete Hegseth to run the Pentagon at a time of global instability?
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: Yes, I think – I think the chairman of the Armed Services in the Senate has made a great statement. He said, we certainly support the process, and he has his support going through the process, and we’ll have to see how that goes through.
One thing that is absolutely clear is that the Pentagon needs reform. We are not keeping pace with what Russia and China are doing in advanced weapon systems.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Mm-hmm.
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: At the same time, we’re seeing the weapon systems of advanced technology that are being utilized on the battlefield of Ukraine, and our acquisition systems and our accounting systems, our spending systems are not working at the Pentagon.
MARGARET BRENNAN: That requires experience.
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: We need reform. We need reform. Someone has to be able to lead that, and that’s going to be the debate in the Senate.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I love when I ask congresspeople, and they just keep reminding me that they don’t sit in the Senate and don’t want to comment. I sense some – some uncertainty there on your part, but I don’t want to put words in your mouth.
I want to ask you, though, about what is ticking down in Congress right now. And that is something – there’s a scramble at the end of this year to get a bunch of work done.
Your Democratic colleague in the Senate Mark Warner, said: “It is an urgent priority to address cybersecurity gaps in these final weeks.”
Is it a priority for you to do something because of this massive breach by China of U.S. telecom?
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: You know, one thing that’s – that’s very disappointing and we’ve seen from this administration, this malaise of – or this stasis of where they’re unable to move as a result of the president unable to make a decision.
Here, we have this massive breach, this hack that has occurred from China, but we’re hearing nothing from the president himself, no action from this administration as to what their – what consequences there will be.
This is not – doesn’t need just a technological fix. This needs also a diplomatic fix, a nation-to-nation consequences to China. You know, in the Obama administration…
MARGARET BRENNAN: What would consequences look like?
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: In the Obama administration, China hacked the personnel management system of the U.S. government, and there were no consequences. And now we’re seeing China hack the entire system of the nation.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: There needs to be consequences. They can be economic. They can be in a number of ways.
But, right now, we have zero. We have nothing coming out of the administration. What need – we need to be talking about is not, technologically, how do we fix this…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Mm-hmm.
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: … but how do we address – which is what Donald Trump is doing, is coming in and saying, China is our most – gravest threat. How do we address the fact that China is aggressively attacking the United States? And they’re doing that in our telecom.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Question for the incoming administration to pick that up.
Thank you, Chair Turner.
Face the Nation will be back in a minute. Stay with us.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: For some analysis on the events unfolding in the Middle East, we’re joined now by Andrew Boyd, a CBS News contributor who previously held leadership positions at the CIA and once served in Damascus as a Foreign Service officer, and Mouaz Moustafa, the executive director of the Syrian Emergency Task Force.
Welcome back to Face the Nation.
Mouaz, I want to start with you.
You have been involved with the Syrian opposition for well over a decade. Help us understand what it means to see the regime fall.
MOUAZ MOUSTAFA (Executive Director, Syrian Emergency Task Force): It’s an indescribable feeling of happiness that this regime, this dictator who has made the worst crimes of the 21st century, alongside Russia and Iran and ISIS, all of these horrible people have been defeated by a coalition of rebel forces that did not need any support from any outside country, not Turkey, not Qatar, not anyone.
This time around, Syria was liberated by its people for its people. And it’s truly inspiring. And it’s not just good reverberations for Syria, for the Middle East and Europe as well.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, there’s a lot of uncertainty as to what this all means.
Andy, you have watched this region very closely for some time. At this hour, none of the officials that I have spoken with in regional governments, in the U.S. government seem to know where Bashar al-Assad even went. Does it matter where he went?
ANDREW BOYD: Mouaz may differ on this one. I don’t think it does now that the government has fallen.
I do think what unfolds over the next couple of weeks and, if the opposition actually treats all of the factions in Syria with dignity and respect and ensures their safety, we will have more understanding, because there’s a lot of atrocities that were carried out by the Assad regime.
Those people are probably still in Syria. And so we will see how that goes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: A fair point. The people who worked within the regime, they’re still there?
ANDREW BOYD: The Syrian military intelligence, the military – the other intelligence services, Syrian General Intelligence Directorate, I mean, have a lot of blood on their hands. So…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
And I know that you personally, Mouaz, were involved in smuggling out documented evidence of some of the torture, of the mass atrocities, the systematic, institutionalized violence that happened from some of those prisons. You brought it to Congress. You made it public.
What do you think we can learn now as those billing – buildings are being seized by rebels?
MOUAZ MOUSTAFA: Well, the first thing that we are working really hard, and I can tell you all the rebel factions are working really hard to do, is find Austin Tice and hopefully bring him home, God willing, now back to this family.
MARGARET BRENNAN: An American journalist who once worked at CBS News for some time, a Marine veteran.
MOUAZ MOUSTAFA: And he’s a hero.
He went to cover the plight of the Syrian people from what Assad, Iran and Russia have been doing to them. And, God willing, we bring him home alive. But we need to find him and bring him to his mom, no matter what. And the Syrians owe him a debt forever.
And, also, other Americans that are undeclared, and freeing Syrians from prisons is something that’s really important. But the collection of that intelligence, as well as the Hezbollah, Iranian, Russian, Assad regime, any officials that have been arrested by the Syrian people, again, without any support of the international community or regional countries, who actually worked to try to save Assad, that is valuable.
That’s valuable to the United States. That’s why we need to engage with this new emerging government that, God willing, is the path to democracy. The only Arab country in the world…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
MOUAZ MOUSTAFA: … with the hope of being a democracy is Syria. That’s incredible.
MARGARET BRENNAN: That’s a big promise to make.
MOUAZ MOUSTAFA: It’s not a promise. It’s hope that’s realistic.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Or hope. Hope.
Andy, but the – right now, the person we’re seeing emerge, we showed him in Umayyad Mosque…
(CROSSTALK)
MARGARET BRENNAN: … hugely symbolic place to come and make a speech in Damascus, is this leader of a terrorist group designated, by the United States as a terrorist…
ANDREW BOYD: Correct. Correct.
MARGARET BRENNAN: … $10 million bounty on his head.
ANDREW BOYD: Correct.
MARGARET BRENNAN: What does that signify to you?
ANDREW BOYD: Well, as Congressman Turner said, it’s not going to be an easy process to undesignate Abu Mohammad al-Jolani.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You – which means the U.S. can’t talk to him.
ANDREW BOYD: The U.S. can’t talk to him.
I mean, we can accommodate some sort of flexibility there, but he’s not going to instantly come off the designation list. So, I mean, we will see. I mean, you have said that – that he’s going to respect all the factions, the Druze, the Christian, even the Shia and Alawi, who are responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Syrians.
MOUAZ MOUSTAFA: I’m speaking by his actions, not by his words.
ANDREW BOYD: Right.
MOUAZ MOUSTAFA: Well, Aleppo, et cetera – you could talk to the bishop of Aleppo, but, yes, absolutely.
ANDREW BOYD: But – but time will tell. I mean, I’m a born skeptic, as a lot of my colleagues at the agency are. We will see.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Go ahead, Mouaz.
MOUAZ MOUSTAFA: Yes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Tell us who is in this. You talked about it as a coalition, not just HTS. Who are these people who now seem to be in control of Syria?
MOUAZ MOUSTAFA: Sure.
First of all, since the whole world is boiling down the whole Syrian revolution to one faction of a coalition, or, let’s say, even one person within a faction of that coalition, let’s discuss that.
Why was HTS put on the terrorist list? It was put on a terrorist list over an older version called Jabhat al-Nusra that had a loose affiliation with al Qaeda…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
MOUAZ MOUSTAFA: … not a transnational or regional terrorist thing, but an inter-Islamist whatever.
I don’t agree with any…
ANDREW BOYD: But, Mouaz, I think Margaret’s talking also as a person, Abu Mohammad al-Jolani. I mean, he was in al Qaeda in Iraq. He worked for Abu Musab al Zarqawi. He spent several years in Bucca prison as a detainee.
So we’re also – we’re talking HTS, Jabhat al-Nusra, but also him as a person. He’s designated…
(CROSSTALK)
MOUAZ MOUSTAFA: Sure, let’s talk about him as a person.
But what’s hilarious about this is, right now, as millions of Syrians come back from Europe and are ready to come back home, as people have not been displaced and there has been zero reports of violations – and I was on the phone with the bishop of Aleppo.
The reason I was on the phone is that President Trump and people in President Trump’s camp were concerned about the Christians in Syria. Of course, there’s so much focus on – any time there’s something, terrorist, terrorist.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.
MOUAZ MOUSTAFA: And what ended up happening is, the bishop of Aleppo said, sir, first, it’s the coalition of groups, including HTS.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
MOUAZ MOUSTAFA: And we have had electricity more now than we have under the regime, and our only fear is Russian airstrikes.
So I’m glad that President Trump still – still…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
MOUAZ MOUSTAFA: … told Russia what it should do.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.
MOUAZ MOUSTAFA: Get out of Syria. And it has done so.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, we will be watching to see whether that continues to be the case and what transpires and what it means…
(CROSSTALK)
MOUAZ MOUSTAFA: One – one last thing, Margaret. It’s really important.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I have to go. I’m so sorry.
MOUAZ MOUSTAFA: Al Qaeda in Syria is HoR.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
MOUAZ MOUSTAFA: It’s the affiliate.
And HTS has defeated it and defeated ISIS. The old designation is kind of irrelevant.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes. Well, we will be watching this developing story.
And we will be right back.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Tonight on 60 Minutes, a look at how the crypto industry flexed its political muscle by donating enormous sums of money to get pro- crypto candidates elected.
(Begin VT)
BRAD GARLINGHOUSE (CEO, Ripple): Crypto for all of us.
MARGARET BRENNAN (voice-over): Brad Garlinghouse is the CEO of a company called Ripple, whose cryptocurrency, XRP, became the third largest in the world this past week.
Ripple and two other companies contributed $144 million to super PACs that supported pro-crypto Republicans and Democrats.
BRAD GARLINGHOUSE: Do I think we had an impact to elect a Democratic senator in Michigan, Elissa Slotkin? Yes, absolutely. Do I think we had an impact in Arizona, a Democratic senator in Arizona, Gallego? Absolutely.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Overall, crypto companies contributed one-third of all direct corporate contributions to super PACs. Of the 29 Republicans and 33 Democrats the industry backed in congressional races, 85 percent won.
BRAD GARLINGHOUSE: It’s incredible.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So you see this election as a major victory?
BRAD GARLINGHOUSE: For sure.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But some people will look at that and say, you teamed up and bought an election.
BRAD GARLINGHOUSE: Here’s the thing. Voters voted. We educated voters, as many industries do, about candidates.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But you helped supercharge the candidates with the money in the coffers, right…
BRAD GARLINGHOUSE: We absolutely did.
MARGARET BRENNAN: … on whatever it is they wanted to talk about.
BRAD GARLINGHOUSE: That’s absolutely right.
(End VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: You can watch my full report tonight on 60 Minutes.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: We will be right back with a lot more Face the Nation, including our conversation with the bipartisan chairs of a congressional task force investigating what went wrong with law enforcement in the Butler, Pennsylvania, assassination attempt of former President Trump.
Stay with us.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Welcome back to Face the Nation.
On Friday, we sat down with Republican Mike Kelly and Democrat Jason Crow, the leaders of the bipartisan congressional task force investigating the assassination attempts on former President Trump.
We wanted to know what they learned about the challenges facing the Secret Service when it comes to keeping protectees safe.
(Begin VT)
REPRESENTATIVE JASON CROW (D-Colorado): The area that I in particular looked at was the culture of the organization, because I was struck by the stories and the recount of the specific actions of officers and agents on the ground that day.
And there were some heroic ones, but there were also a lot of examples of people that knew that something was wrong and they didn’t say anything.
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE KELLY (R-Pennsylvania): Yes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Why didn’t anyone say anything? Were they unaware of vulnerabilities, or is there a culture of silence, where people speaking up get smacked down for doing so?
REPRESENTATIVE JASON CROW: That’s – that is my concern, is that there’s a culture of silence and that individual officers and agents are not empowered to say something is wrong.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Congressman Kelly, on that point, I mean, some of this sounds like management 101, that this is not specific to the Secret Service. A lot of organizations have problems like what you just highlighted there.
Acting Director Rowe testified Thursday he thinks the Secret Service needs to identify leaders earlier on and promote them based on ability, not just hours logged on the clock.
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE KELLY: But isn’t that true of everything in life?
When you look at this, when people talk about, we need better leadership than that, I was on those grounds the night before. They weren’t set up at that point. They were going to work through the night to get it ready. And then you find out afterwards that there was no coordination, there was no team meeting, there was no, well, this is going to be your responsibility to know where you’re supposed to be and what time you’re supposed to be there.
You bring local law enforcement in, but you don’t – you don’t include them in the planning. Or, when you do the – the interviews afterwards, well, I thought he was going to do it. No, we thought somebody else was going to do it.
When you knew there was a suspicious person on the grounds – and this is a common – going back and forth now. This is where they said they weren’t communicating with each other. You can’t tell me that you didn’t know until 10 minutes after 6:00 that you couldn’t communicate. At 11 minutes after 6:00, the shooter took action.
They knew an hour-and-a-half ahead of time. Out of all the thousands of the people walking around on that ter – on that property, there was a suspicious person, and they kept losing sight of him.
I would have said – and I have no background in law enforcement – keep the president back until we clear the area. That’s the part that doesn’t make sense.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE KELLY: Because they failed from the first thing, from the picking of the site, preparing the site, to the coordination of the site, to the ability to communicate.
At every step of the way, they failed. And the question is, why didn’t you just say, hold up, just hold up, don’t let him come out?
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, when the acting director says on Thursday of this week, we need to pick better leaders, that would suggest that the agency today does not necessarily have the leaders it needs to fix…
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE KELLY: Oh.
MARGARET BRENNAN: … all the things you just laid out.
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE KELLY: Yes.
And I think, by saying what he said, that’s what he meant. They don’t have the leadership they need. When they morphed them into Homeland Security back in 2001, 2 – whenever it was, they took away their identity and their exclusivity. When you’re the best of the best, when you’re the elite of the elites…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Mm-hmm.
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE KELLY: … if you lose that, then all of a sudden you just become part of a team.
There was a huge mistake back when Homeland came into existence. That’s not a criticism, because they did what they had to do back then. But I’m telling you, on July 13, there was a lack of professionalism, there was a lack of concern, there was a lack of coordination.
And the ability to communicate is the one thing I will never understand. You knew you couldn’t talk to each other. Why did you go forward?
REPRESENTATIVE JASON CROW: I want to be really clear that there are plenty of extraordinary agents and officers in the Secret Service, right?
MARGARET BRENNAN: Mm-hmm.
REPRESENTATIVE JASON CROW: And when we talk about a failure of mission, you know, in Butler or any place else, that doesn’t mean that, you know, 80, 90 percent of the – of the Secret Service agents aren’t phenomenal and dedicated professionals.
But there is a systematic problem here. The structure, the personnel, the staffing of the Secret Service, hasn’t changed in years, at the same time as we are now asking them to do things that they didn’t do a decade ago.
And they are – they are fulfilling an operational tempo that requires them to be deployed…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Mm-hmm.
REPRESENTATIVE JASON CROW: … three weeks out of a month, constantly doing events, skipping firearms training, skipping leadership development training. We are not developing their skills and their training. And I think you see the results of that.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, you made three dozen recommendations in this report on what to change, including to reduce the number of protectees.
Right now, Secret Service protects not only presidential leadership, their immediate families, their spouses, their children, candidates, and anyone really the president designates. Should all of that continue?
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE KELLY: We’ve increased the size of protectees that are out there, including foreign assets that come here and people that bring – bring their families and things. So that’s gotten so big.
But, if you look at Homeland, I think – I think, when you look at Secret Service, it’s about 3 percent of their overall spend. The biggest spend is on FEMA. And, now, we don’t want to change anything like that.
But you can’t have an exclusive without funding them to the level that they need to be funded, not only in manpower and in training, but in the assets that they have to have available to them.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Mm-hmm.
REPRESENTATIVE JASON CROW: You always have to ask yourself, what are your missions and what is the thing that only you can do? Like, what is that no- fail mission?
MARGARET BRENNAN: Mm-hmm.
REPRESENTATIVE JASON CROW: In this case, with the Secret Service, that no- fail mission is to protect our highest-level candidates and our highest- level elected officials, period.
All the other things, investigation of financial crimes, training and support, these are all secondary missions. So, if you’re not actually adequately performing any of those missions to standard, and if you have reached a breaking point, then it’s time to assess, what are those missions that need to fall off and to be transitioned elsewhere?
That’s my view.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You, Congressman Crow, seemed very frustrated, based on the report and hearing that you have…
REPRESENTATIVE JASON CROW: Do I seem frustrated?
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE KELLY: No, no, you’re very…
(CROSSTALK)
(LAUGHTER)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, with the fact that you couldn’t find out more about the shooter, both in Butler and in – the potential shooter in Mar-a- Lago.
REPRESENTATIVE JASON CROW: Yes.
That’s actually a really important element to the story. And people have rightful questions about it. I have questions about it. And that is, why did the shooter do this?
MARGARET BRENNAN: Mm-hmm.
REPRESENTATIVE JASON CROW: What drove him to do it? Was he a lone wolf shooter? Did he have associates or affiliates? What was his motivation? How was he radicalized?
We endeavored to get answers to those questions. We submitted numerous requests to the Department of Justice and FBI. Their response is, this is an ongoing criminal investigation, and we can’t give that information to Congress.
That, in my view, is an unacceptable position. And here’s why.
MARGARET BRENNAN: For both Butler and Mar-a-Lago, that was the answer?
REPRESENTATIVE JASON CROW: Correct. That’s right.
And here’s why that’s unacceptable. I sit on the Intelligence Committee. I have sat on the Armed Services Committee. And Congress all the time gets access to our nation’s most sensitive secrets, ongoing operations, intelligence operations, military operations.
So you can’t tell me that there isn’t a way to put us into a secure facility and get us information about an ongoing criminal investigation, when I regularly am receiving briefs on what our – our spies and our military special operators are doing regularly around the world.
So, none of this stands to reason. And we have dedicated ourselves to continue to get those answers. And if the FBI and DOJ thinks that they can wait us out and stonewall us, they are wrong.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You think they’re intentionally withholding information?
REPRESENTATIVE JASON CROW: I don’t know what their intention is. I mean, I’m not a mind reader. But, you know, I have been around Congress long enough to know what – what…
(CROSSTALK)
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE KELLY: When you get stonewalled. Yes. Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE JASON CROW: When you get stonewalled.
I mean, listen, this is – this is not uncommon…
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE KELLY: No.
REPRESENTATIVE JASON CROW: … when you’re dealing with agencies and departments. It’s a pretty regular method. And it’s something that, you know, we encounter all the time in our oversight responsibilities.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, we don’t know, or tell me if perhaps you know answer to this.
REPRESENTATIVE JASON CROW: Yes, we’re – we’re in…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Was there a foreign nexus? Do we know, yes or no?
(CROSSTALK)
REPRESENTATIVE JASON CROW: Americans are deluged with misinformation and disinformation that’s coming from a variety of sources.
And conspiracy theories sometimes take root when there’s a lack of information or there’s conflicting information. So our job is to try to get information out there, to be transparent, to be accessible, to tell the real story.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Mm-hmm.
REPRESENTATIVE JASON CROW: And that’s why this is important. This element of that story is important, because there’s a lot of conspiracies around…
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE KELLY: Absolutely.
REPRESENTATIVE JASON CROW: … these shootings, right? And we take that seriously.
And we want to – we want to, you know, rebuff those. But, you know, in this case – and I sit on a lot of other committees with access to information – I have seen no evidence that a state actor, an adversary was responsible for either of these attempted assassination attempts. I have seen no evidence.
But, you know, when you’re in a position where, you know, the government says, well, it’s not this, but we won’t tell you what it is, right, and – and we can’t tell you – we can’t tell you definitively, well, you know, people respond and have questions about that.
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE KELLY: Mm-hmm.
REPRESENTATIVE JASON CROW: And I understand that mentality. So, even though we don’t have evidence of one thing, people still want to know what else it is. And I still want to know what else it is.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Did he act alone? Do we know that?
REPRESENTATIVE JASON CROW: We don’t know that.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Or Congress doesn’t know that.
REPRESENTATIVE JASON CROW: Yes.
And, you know, it’s one thing to say – and I’m going to be really clear about this.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE JASON CROW: Because this is very, very sensitive territory…
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE KELLY: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE JASON CROW: Because we want to make sure we’re not…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.
REPRESENTATIVE JASON CROW: … getting people spun up unnecessarily.
There is no evidence of – from other sources, you know, internal government sources, from our investigation, that others were involved, that he acted with others, and that a foreign state or adversary was involved in this.
But that still raises the question of, why did he do this?
MARGARET BRENNAN: Mm-hmm.
REPRESENTATIVE JASON CROW: Was just – was he just a disturbed young man who decided to take action alone? Probably. I mean, that’s probably the answer.
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE KELLY: That’s what it looks like now, yes.
REPRESENTATIVE JASON CROW: Right?
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE KELLY: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE JASON CROW: That’s what it looks like. But we need to know, right? And let’s get the information out there that the government has to make sure that we can settle this. And that’s – that’s our obligation.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Is the agency today able to do its job, if they weren’t able to do it in July?
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE KELLY: We were tasked with trying to find out what happened that day, why it happened that day, and to – and to the best of our ability make sure that the Secret Service, that doesn’t happen again to them.
We can’t guarantee that these things won’t happen.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Mm-hmm.
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE KELLY: Because it’s a crazy world right now. But there was too much ahead of time that we did know that we didn’t share.
I would never let my child play near a road. And when you do, you put people in jeopardy of that and you know there’s a danger there. Don’t let it happen.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Is there anything that you feel important to raise that we didn’t talk about?
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE KELLY: We never identified as Republicans and Democrats. We – we defined as a task force to find out what happened that day.
And the whole – the whole goal from day one is to restore the faith and trust and confidence that the American people must have in this agency. At this point, it’s probably at the lowest ebb it’s ever been.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Mm-hmm.
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE KELLY: And the other thing is, I think we realize that threats are 365 days a year, 24 hours a day. You can’t take a day off. You can’t take a play off. You’ve got to be ready every single moment for anything that could possibly happen.
Is that a difficult task? Yes. Is it almost impossible? Yes, there’s a lot of bad actors out there. But you know what’s not impossible? Our dedication to the fact that we’re going to do the best we can do every single day to ensure that the American people have the faith and trust and confidence they must have in us.
REPRESENTATIVE JASON CROW: This is a tough place to work.
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE KELLY: Oh.
(LAUGHTER)
REPRESENTATIVE JASON CROW: And there are – frankly, there are some people here that don’t belong here, that I think are just here to get attention, to get, you know, clicks on social media, that aren’t here to legislate.
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE KELLY: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE JASON CROW: But this has been one of the best experiences of my time in Congress. And I couldn’t have asked for a better partner than Mike Kelly.
You know, and he’s a very conservative Republican, and I’m a Democrat. We’re both proud of that.
(LAUGHTER)
REPRESENTATIVE JASON CROW: We’re proud of our politics. And…
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE KELLY: We are.
REPRESENTATIVE JASON CROW: And we represent our districts, right?
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE KELLY: Yes. Yes. We do. We do.
REPRESENTATIVE JASON CROW: That’s actually – that’s actually the job, right?
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE KELLY: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE JASON CROW: We represent the culture and the politics and the hopes and dreams of our districts. And that’s what’s so – so beautiful about this place when it works well.
But this process – and I think this is really important for Americans to understand – this process was serious. It was bipartisan. It was – it was deep. And we did the job that we were asked to do.
(End VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: You can watch our full interview on our Web site and our YouTube page.
We will be right back.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: A panel of federal judges in D.C. last week upheld a new law that could effectively ban the popular social media app TikTok by mid- January if its Chinese owners do not sell it to a new buyer.
Frank McCourt, the executive chairman of McCourt Global and founder of Project Liberty, is one of the potential buyers, and he joins us now.
Good to see you here.
FRANK MCCOURT (Executive Chairman, McCourt Global): Good morning.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, TikTok says, well, they might go to the Supreme Court on this one. If they don’t, their parent company, ByteDance, has said they’re not interested in selling.
Do you have any indication that they will and that the incoming Trump administration would support someone like you buying it?
FRANK MCCOURT: Well, yes, I think where we are now, Margaret, is, there’s three options.
You know, one is an appeal. Our lawyers tell us there’s very little chance of a successful appeal by ByteDance, strong bipartisan legislation, a 3-0 by the three – you know, by the appellate court.
So now that leaves us with two, a ban or a sale. We don’t want to see it banned. I would add that President – president-elect Trump has also said he doesn’t want to see it banned. So now let’s talk about the sale.
So we’ve been working for the last eight months on the assumption that the legislation would be upheld and that there would be a sale.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Mm-hmm.
FRANK MCCOURT: So, that’s where we are right now. And we’re working very, very hard to be in a position to buy the U.S. portion of TikTok…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.
FRANK MCCOURT: … so it’s not shut down.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, what is that worth to you? There are estimates it could be as high as $200 billion in worth.
FRANK MCCOURT: Two hundred billion dollars would be more – more in the range of what the entirety of the platform is worth, not just the U.S. piece.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Mm-hmm.
FRANK MCCOURT: And let’s be clear. The Chinese government has said they’re not selling the algorithm. They view that as I.P. of the country.
So, Tik – U.S. TikTok is a piece of ByteDance. If it’s sold, it will be sold without an algorithm. So the value will be far, far less than 200 – $200 billion. We have circled over $20 billion to be in a position, and we’re very serious about raising whatever capital is required to buy the platform.
And – and, to be clear…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
FRANK MCCOURT: … we’re looking to move the 170 million users over to a new protocol, where the individuals will own and control their identity and their data. We’re not looking to replicate the existing version.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, let’s talk about that.
As you said, 170 million Americans use TikTok, especially young people. U.S. law prohibits foreign control of mass media, but this social media space is kind of a loophole here. There aren’t a lot of governing rules in this space.
Do you think Congress needs to write new rules of the role – of the road to ban foreign ownership and to put restrictions on even owners like you?
FRANK MCCOURT: I think we need to upgrade our regulations and our policies. There’s no doubt about that.
But, far more importantly, we need to fix the technology. The Internet is broken, fundamentally broken. We heard your guest earlier Representative Turner talk about the threat from China on our telecom hack, massive hack, massive threat to Americans.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And they’re still in the telecom system, according to U.S. intelligence.
FRANK MCCOURT: Absolutely.
And we heard your recent guests, Representatives Kelly and Crow, talk about the deluge of misinformation and disinformation, the fact that it’s a very dangerous world right now.
The reason why the Congress moved so quickly with TikTok to pass the legislation is because it is a national security threat to Americans.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Mm-hmm.
FRANK MCCOURT: And the reason why the judges upheld it is for that same reason.
So let’s turn a problem into a solution by taking advantage of this moment, move the 170 million users over to a new protocol where individuals are respected.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Do you have an indication from president-elect Trump that he wants to see an American entity buy this? Because he would also have some influence in the outcome.
FRANK MCCOURT: Of course, as president-elect, he’ll have massive influence. But…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Have you spoken to him?
FRANK MCCOURT: But – but President – President Trump is a dealmaker. We know that. I’m a dealmaker, OK? I have been doing business deals my entire – my entire life.
Let’s make a deal where everybody wins, where China’s able to sell the U.S. portion of TikTok, where American citizens are protected, and where there’s – and 170 million users continue to enjoy the platform. So he has said he doesn’t want it banned, which means a sale.
And the legislation and the – the appellate decision require that this platform be – be owned by Americans. We have built a clean, bottom-up American stack to move this user base over, where there will be no Chinese backdoors and no ability to – to take advantage of American citizens.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You – you’re indicating you’ve built out some technology, you think, that will not allow for government surveillance?
FRANK MCCOURT: Correct.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But can you, if you are – whoever owns this is going to be powerful, if you get 170 million Americans on a platform, particularly young people, to consume the information on this system.
So what guarantees do you make? Because Facebook and Twitter, they also harvest information about consumers. Would you?
FRANK MCCOURT: Yes, well, that’s exactly what we don’t want to do.
So the reason why we want to move people to a new stack where you can’t harvest without permission, so individuals will own and control their identity and their data, permission its use, will actually have an Internet that respects people, as opposed to exploits them.
Imagine empowering people. And, to be clear, Margaret, I’m not looking to be the CEO of TikTok. We call it the people’s bid, because we want this to empower people and to stop this nonsense where we’re exploiting people by scraping their data and taking advantage of them, and, in the case of TikTok, actually creating a national security threat.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Elon Musk, who owns X, formerly known as Twitter, now has raised concerns about content moderation restricting free speech. Do you share that concern, and what restrictions would you put on paid political advertising?
FRANK MCCOURT: I mentioned earlier that we need better policies, for sure, but we need better tech.
Right now, we have a tech stack that’s built, and these giant apps scrape our data and exploit it. Why not flip the power? Why not actually give people their data back?
MARGARET BRENNAN: Mm-hmm.
FRANK MCCOURT: Our data is our personhood in this age. Let us decide how to use it. Let us each decide what moderation we’re comfortable with, what censorship we’re comfortable with, what privacy we’re comfortable with.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Should – OK, so the surgeon general says you need a warning label because this is damaging the mental health of young people in this country.
Should people under the age of 16 have access?
FRANK MCCOURT: Under the current tech stack, I agree with the surgeon general. Under a new technology – listen, I’m a builder. My family has been building for five generations.
This is an engineering problem that can be fixed. Let’s take this ban of TikTok…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Mm-hmm.
FRANK MCCOURT: … this massive national security problem, and turn it into a solution for Americans. Let’s make it a win, a win-win.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
Well, mid-January, we will see what happens in this case. And we will watch your potential bid here. Thank you for joining us.
We’ll be back in a moment.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: The weeklong cease-fire between Israel and Hezbollah in Lebanon appears to be holding, but the situation in Gaza remains dire.
Here’s our Debora Patta reporting from East Jerusalem.
(Begin VT)
DEBORA PATTA (voice-over): A massive Israeli strike caught on camera by CBS News as it ripped through the Al-Mawasi tented camp near Khan Yunis, a designated humanitarian safe zone turned into a blazing inferno.
Faced with unpredictable danger, exhausted families on the move again. Israel says it was targeting two Hamas militants. But over 20 people died, among them four children and a pregnant woman.
(MONA SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE)
DEBORA PATTA: In Central Gaza, 13-year-old Shadi Faraj (sp?) was playing outside when he was killed.
(MONA SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE)
DEBORA PATTA: “This is proof of their crimes,” his aunt Mona (sp?) shouted. “They just want to kill as many Palestinians as possible.”
In Northern Gaza, Israel has ordered everyone to leave. It is under siege. Even as Palestinians flee, they are shot at. Israel has allowed virtually no aid into the north for more than two months. In the south, this is what it looks like outside the few remaining bakeries, as people fight just for a piece of bread.
Every morning, 11-year-old Zeina Juhab (sp?) braved those crowds, until one day she did not come home. She had been trampled to death.
(AHMED SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE)
DEBORA PATTA: “The world looks at us, and all they see are terrorists,” her father, Ahmed (sp?), told us. “We’re not terrorists. We just want to survive.”
But no one, it seems, is listening, as hunger spreads everywhere.
(End VT)
DEBORA PATTA: Amnesty International says there is no time to waste and has warned the U.S. to stop sending weapons to Israel because of the likelihood, Margaret, that these would be used for war crimes or genocide.
MARGARET BRENNAN: That was our Debora Patta in East Jerusalem.
We will be right back.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: That’s it for us today. Thank you for watching.
Until next week, for Face the Nation, I’m Margaret Brennan.
